True Cost of CPP with Aravind Sithamparapillai | E116

Transcript generated from the episode audio by automated speech recognition, then reviewed. Speaker labels were inferred from the dialogue rather than detected. Three misrecognised figures were corrected against the episode’s own arithmetic and the published CPP limits; other spoken figures are approximations made in conversation. Where a number matters, rely on current CRA limits rather than this text.

Announcer: Welcome to the Financial Planning for Canadian Business Owners podcast. You will hear about industry insights with award-winning financial planner and entrepreneur Jason Pereira. Through the interviews with different experts with their stories and advice, you will learn how you can navigate the challenges of being an entrepreneur, plan for success, and make the most of your business and life. And now, your host, Jason Pereira.

Jason Pereira: Hello and welcome. Today on our show, our guest is Aravind Sithamparapillai, associate at Ironwood Wealth Management Group. Aravind is a friend of mine. I've known him for several years now, and I brought him in specifically to talk about Canada Pension Plan and some, I will say, rather unique and novel research he's done on the cost of Canada Pension Plan. And with that, here's my interview with Aravind. Aravind, thanks for taking the time today.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Thanks for having me, Jason. It's an honor.

Jason Pereira: Oh, well, not that big an honor. Tell us a little bit about what it is you do.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: So I'm an associate at Ironwood Wealth Management Group. We're a financial planning and investment shop. We help our clients with the holistic wealth management, but my team has brought me in specifically as a little bit of a unique beast where they give me the freedom to go down any weird planning or tax rabbit holes that I find really interesting. So I do the full-scale planning. I've got three main areas that I work with, midwives, sales, and incorporated business owners. And I mean, the reason I'm here is because I've come up with some really weird or interesting ways of looking at CPP that I don't really think anyone has talked about before.

Jason Pereira: Well, I can acknowledge that. So let's talk about Canada Pension Plan. So Canada Pension Plan, as everybody basically knows, is a government-sponsored pension plan that gets contributed to every year off of your payroll. And of course, there's an amount that you're working towards getting. And a lot of the research that's been done to date has been around, typically, when to take it. Take it at 60 because you can take it as early as 60 or defer to 70. We can get into that later on and talk about opinions there and what the math says because it's not straightforward. But more so, we're going to talk about the cost side of this. And in particular, we're talking about the cost side for business owners. Now, the big thing that has always been discussed with business owners is that business owners have to pay both sides of the contribution, the employer and employee portion, doubling the cost. I'm going to be the first one to say that's BS because at the end of the day, if I give you $20, and then we split a $40 bill, you did not pay 50% of that. I paid that. I was 100% the source of the money. Let's be frank. So frankly, the government is telling us how it's split between employee and employer is nothing but a mental accounting trick. At the end of the day, the money is always 100% the employers. And the thing that's unique about employers is that they, employers who business owners, is that they can opt out of CPP by nature of just switching from income to dividends. And a lot of times, people will sell this as a tax savings. It's not a tax savings. This is a opting out of paying into a pension by failing to pay the contribution. It is not a tax. A tax is something, unlike a tax, the pension actually has a direct benefit that you gain from contributions. So it is a retirement income decision. So here's why I brought our Aravind in, and specifically because the misnomer is always saying, well, look, here's what it's costing you in contributions, and here's where you get out of it. That is not the full story, is it? Aravind, care to fill us in on why?

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Yeah. And to be honest, it actually started with some of your content online, Jason, because when I first started, I was studying some of the corporate stuff that you put out there, especially integration. And so that concept of integration, meaning for the most part, and we'll talk about it, whether you pay yourself as dividend or whether you pay yourself as a salary, that tax is more or less the same. And so I kept getting confused when people kept saying, well, you're saving CPP. But it wasn't until I started looking at my own taxes a little bit closer as a self-employed individual, and I realized that CPP, yes, you pay it out, but there's certain tax impacts. And then all of a sudden it hit me that, hey, if we actually followed this line all the way through and said, hey, if I pay myself as a salary as a business owner, and if I pay myself as a dividend, what is the actual difference that I keep in hand? And most people, either through short form or not, or not following that process will default to, well, it's the total amount of CPP premiums. So that's the amount that you're going to save by paying yourself dividends. And then people will carry it a step further and say, hey, well, if we keep that ourselves, reinvest in the business or whatever the case is, we can, quote, unquote, earn more than CPP, which is where I started questioning, is that really the case, especially after we look at the after tax impact?

Jason Pereira: Yep. Excellent. So I mean, we'll get into other reasons why you'd want to be a part of CPP, but let's talk about the cost side of it, and we'll get to the benefit side afterwards, because the cost side of it is really your real help here. So all right, employer employee portion, both are both paid for by the employer despite even though it comes off the employee's portion. Talk to me about how each of those portions is treated from the corporate standpoint as well as the personal standpoint.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Sure. So I would say as far as CPP goes, and then there's, let's call it two bonus pieces that impact the tax planning, as far as CPP goes, the employee portion is a non-refundable tax credit. So the original base CPP before the new enhancement was rolled in, qualifies for a tax credit. And so that tax credit is going to be worth whatever that base credit rate is in whichever province. So we're in Ontario. We're looking at 20.05% for that base CPP contribution of, I believe. Some numbers do this 2024, right? The base contribution rate is 5.95% up to $68,500, right?

Jason Pereira: So basically what's going to happen is that that applies, the credit applies at the personal level and it didn't cost me as an employee that amount. It's down by 20%. It's 20% less.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Yes. But one clarification there, Jason, even that 5.95% is actually a hybrid of 4.95% base and 1% enhancement. So that 4.95% is going to be credit, so 20% less, and then that last 1%. So of 3,800, let's call it $380, give or take, that's going to be a deduction. The remainder is going to be a tax credit at 20%.

Jason Pereira: So bottom line is, give me some round numbers. What's this at the $3,867.50, whatever the total is or last year's total, how much am I actually paying out of pocket at the maximum in general?

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Well, so if we're looking at just that, and if we use last year as an example, actually I'm going to go back and say it depends. I know everyone's favorite during financial planning because the tax credit, yeah, you can calculate the flat amount, and the tax credit actually caps out at about, I'll give you the number, 631 last year. So everyone who's filing their taxes over the next three to four months, they'll see a credit of 631, but the deduction, that 1% deduction is going to be more tax advantageous As you move higher through the income bands because the deduction is always going to be more beneficial at a higher marginal tax rate. So basically that 1% contribution off my income up to the threshold is going to be so roughly out of the almost $4,000 that that is. We're talking about, let's call it 800 bucks roughly, ballpark, I'm probably wrong, but the point here is that it's either going to be saved, it's going to get a deduction that's Going to save either 20 cents on the dollar at the lowest bracket or 53 cents on the dollar at the highest bracket. So we're talking up to $400 in savings on that.

Jason Pereira: So now you're at the total savings of roughly $1,000, roughly best case scenario.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Yeah, give or take, I would say it's about that.

Jason Pereira: Yeah. The employee portion that was coming off their portion, really it's not the ~$3,867 worst-case out-of-pocket; best case it's now closer to ~$2,800, right? So again, that's sizable, it's almost 25% of the overall cost of CPP from the employee standpoint. And it gets better. Want to talk about the employer portion? Let's talk about the employer portion.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: So not considered is that the employer portion is a pure, I mean, really you got to look at the tax a little bit, but to simplify for all the business out there, business owners out there, you can consider the employer portion essentially a pre-tax deduction. It's a pre-tax deduction to the corporation, but it nets out to, if you try to pay that out to yourself, well, you're going to pay tax on it. If you were receiving that as dividend, and because it's a pre-tax deduction, you pay no tax on it. And so because of that, again, it can be as little as 20%, but it can be as much as 53.53% on the whole amount. So to get that equivalent amount of money coming out for a benefit to the shareholder, it's the equivalent of losing half, right?

Jason Pereira: So now we're talking about an actual net cost that's under, I shouldn't do this on the fly, about $1,700 net benefit roughly, or net reduction, right?

Aravind Sithamparapillai: I was going to say actually last year, I think it's closer to like 18 on the high end, because 37, 54, so we're talking about 18. And that employee portion was already deductible in the first place, right? So the overall cost, right? Now we're actually talking about that entire deduction. If you would try to take that out for personal benefit, it would have been over $3,000, right? On the total contribution, which is basically just under eight.

Jason Pereira: So all of a sudden done, we're looking at somewhere out of pocket for employers. So employer, top or upper end and lower end, what's the actual net out-of-pocket cost that they are looking to basically incur, or that they will incur on Canada pension plan?

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Ooh, that's a great question. And I actually have a little chart that I've pulled together. So give me one second, and I'll pull that up, and I can, I mean, do you have any hypothetical examples between zero to $300K that you want to?

Jason Pereira: Well, I mean, here's the thing. So the, anyone below the Year's Maximum Pensionable earnings, which is what? Almost $73,000 now.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: No, sorry, $68,500 for the first ceiling, $73,000 for the second ceiling on the new enhancement.

Jason Pereira: Is basically anyone there is going to be paying less than the maximum of the $3,867.50. So really what we're talking about is anyone that's kind of the, any kind of kind of the maximum of Canada pension plan. So it's $73,000 in change to anyone at top bracket, which is over, what is it this year, $250 something?

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Oh, I haven't looked up 2024 yet. But I will, I will clarify one thing, Jason, I think these numbers will be slightly different because I've done my 2023 calculations and I'm going to have to update for all the new tax brackets and how they all come into play for CPP for 2024. But if we look at 2023 as an example, if you hit that maximum pensionable earnings, you're looking at your net in hand costs last year of CPP to be about 5,300.

Jason Pereira: Okay. So 5,300 net versus the near 8,000. Everybody thought it was $5,331 exactly versus $7,735 is the amount for 2023.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Right. So, so pretty, pretty reasonable, pretty reasonable reduction, quite honestly. You know, we're looking at a pretty substantial, a little close to a third.

Jason Pereira: So that automatically changes the equation, right? Because oftentimes I've seen these entire breakeven scenarios of like, oh, you know, you'll never make your money back on CPP as an employer because of this, right? So, but if one third of the cost is actually taken out, right? And in addition to that, now the question becomes, what's the retirement tax bracket of the, of the retired person, the retired business owner, that's going to be somewhere between low and high, right? Like that's really the net calculus we should be doing is what is the actual after tax implications of this? And that's where no one else has done that.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Well, I would actually say that there's, there's a few more pieces to that. So that 53, 31 at the YMPE, there's actually a couple more pieces that come into play. So the versus integration. And I think you, Jason, more than anyone is probably very intimately aware that integration isn't perfectly efficient. And so in most provinces, you're actually slightly worse off paying yourself a dividend from a tax standpoint versus paying yourself a salary.

Jason Pereira: And let's, let's monitor, let's, let's actually clarify how much that is. We're talking like single percentage points. Like we're talking like in some cases, depending on the province, it varies, right?

Aravind Sithamparapillai: But I think the best outcome I saw was 2% from around there. Is there's, there's like one outlier below the small business deduction at about 2%. But I would say most of them fluctuate between one and even 0.5. So yeah, we're not even talking about like, oh, this is a big material difference to going dividends to income. Like you get to save a fortune. You know, we're talking about maybe you save a thousand bucks on, on a six figure amount. But here's the case. That's usually saving it if you pay yourself a salary and most people are trying to avoid.

Jason Pereira: Well, that's the irony, right? So the reduction, so the savings on paying salary versus dividends also gets added to the calculus.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: 100%. And that's something that I think people often don't see or they don't take into consideration. And so if you look at even half a percent, but now what's half a percent on a flat dollar amount of say $200,000? Well, that's an extra thousand dollars that you've penalized yourself just to avoid CPP.

Jason Pereira: Yeah. So that's where when you start adding these pieces together, it's like, oh, the credit, that's only $600. Oh, the 1% deduction, that's only $300. Oh, the, or sorry, the 1% is probably only on three thousands, only 30 bucks. But if you look at the employer deduction side, oh, all of a sudden that's a, now we're looking at what, what have you of 1800. Now we're adding a thousand for the dividend inefficiency. All of these are based on trying to avoid CPP, which is such a small amount to begin with.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Yep. And yeah.

Jason Pereira: So even if, you know, we're just looking at 73,200 in income, which is where CPP tops out, then you're still looking at at least $380 worst case of the basically worth of tax savings on that all together, right? Which is now again, reducing it to basically, well by, by well over a third of the total contribution amount.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: That's basically it. Now that was, we talked about $5,331. So I just want to give some 2023 numbers. $5,331 at the YMPE, but you know, if we peak out at 300,000 of pre-tax corporate profit and now you as a business owner would have been sitting there saying, okay, should I pay myself salary or dividends? Do you know how much CPP actually ended up in hand costing you? $2,688. So it's actually even less than when you thought you were paying half of it yourself.

Jason Pereira: Yeah.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Yeah. There we go.

Jason Pereira: So let's talk about what you get in exchange for this, right? And this is what always drives me nuts. It's, and people are really terrible at truly understanding the value of this.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Okay. Hold on. I got to add one more thing.

Jason Pereira: I feel like Oprah was like, wait, there's more. Wait, there's more.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: There's one last piece. And then we can talk about everything that you get for it. To most business owners, they're growing their business. A lot of times this decision is often in the middle of their life, right? They have kids, things are busy. They think they're going to save a little bit of money. But because of the dividend top-up situation that comes into play, or the gross-up story, that's the official term, when you pay yourself a dividend, the amount you receive in hand is actually grossed up, And then it's added to your tax return. Now, the dividend tax credit, yes, offsets the actual tax paid, but there are certain government income-tested benefits, like the Canada Child Benefit. And those are not calculated based on the net tax paid. Those are calculated based on your net income or your net household income. And so there is a small but meaningful difference between what that net income looks like as a salary versus what that net income looks like as a dividend. And so that dividend shows a little bit of a higher net income, which actually then reduces the Canada Child Benefit and other income-tested benefits that you might qualify for to coin your term.

Jason Pereira: It's a phantom tax that people haven't considered. Oh, they're going to be starting on clawbacks and phase-outs. Anyway, so the moral of the story is if you're in someone who's actually in the range where you would be able to keep your Canada Child Benefit and get income range, because at a certain point, no matter how many kids you have, you're not going to get anything, and you're above the threshold for the clawback, Then the reality is that, yeah, that additional savings of that clawback, again, adds to the calculus of how little CPP costs you.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: So that's specific to one group of people, but frankly, it's not a material. No, not at all. And I mean, these days, especially with many people deciding to be self-employed, if we think about any physicians or any healthcare providers that have the ability to incorporate as well, not only is it business owners in the operator business owner sense of the word, but anyone who has the ability to incorporate needs to be considering this as a part of their overall financial planning.

Jason Pereira: Yep, no, very true. So, all right, let's get to the benefits side. And we're going to talk about general retirement. We'll get back to retirement in a second, not the realization of taking it out later. We're also going to talk about the other things people don't talk about. Okay, so first off, the benefit, right? People have a hard time wrapping their heads around the benefit of a government-backed, indexed to inflation, lifetime income, okay? Can't remember where, saw a study years ago that basically showed that when people were given the choice between an annuity or a lump sum, people discounted the value of the annuity by 30%, meaning that it's really hard for us to do the math as human beings on what this actual lump sum is relative to a small amount over time. A smaller amount over time can actually far exceed the value of a lump sum. In fact, the average person was discounting and getting 30% less than they could have, if they just take annuity, yep. So, and I would also say that these break-even scenarios that people run are inherently flawed because what about things like inflation shocks, right? I mean, anyone who was on CPP in the last couple of years was grateful that their pension was basically indexed to inflation because that was not something they felt, right? So, that's great. That's a benefit that's hard to get your head around. So, first off, it is really, I would say, and everybody's always worried about, well, what happens if I die early? You got bigger problems, you're dead. All right, let's be frank, right? Like, you got bigger problems. If you're worried about leaving the biggest estate, then really insurance is the solution. But not breathing is your biggest problem when you're dead. But let's talk about the other stuff that happens before you die. What other benefits does Canada Pension Plan give you that, frankly, people are not factoring into the value of this thing?

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Well, I think the big one, to your point about, even if you pass away prematurely but early and you have kids, I mean, one of those is going to be the survivor benefit. I think that one is huge. And then there's a handful of small pieces that we often don't think about, like the disability portion that can potentially be paid out. And oftentimes, if you're an operator, a say in a type of business, we're getting cheap disability insurance, isn't always viable. CPP is a known cost and something that's baked in that's going to protect you for at least a little bit. So I think those are two that are often very much overlooked when it comes to what kind of benefits do I get throughout my life.

Jason Pereira: Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong. I will say this much. Canada Pension Plan disability, it's like, you won't qualify for it unless you've got something that's pretty much you're never going back to work. But it's still there, right? And so if we really want to look at what the value of Canada Pension Plan is, and what you're paying for, I mean, part of that contribution is a premium towards a disability insurance policy that you're not doing the math on.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: And I don't know if this is where you intended to take it, but I think it's also important to remember that we get RRSP room. And so that's like an ancillary benefit to paying yourself a salary and having this tax shelter as well that people often overlook. And I think all of these pieces have to be, which I know, Jason, you're a very big proponent about financial planning as a whole and not just looking at one thing on its own. But I think you have to think about all of those pieces as well when it comes to how are you organizing for your total wealth?

Jason Pereira: Absolutely. So yeah, you have that. And I will also say the other thing that's overlooked is the orphans' benefit. I mean, the reality is, is that you die early and you leave kids behind. Those kids are going to get a payout until a certain age, right? In actuality, if you had just gone to work, and if you had opted out of CPP entirely, your entire working life, and you've had young children, and you pass away, well, congratulations. You saved that amount, right? You saved that amount. But how fast is that amount going to be eaten up in comparison to the widows and orphans' benefits?

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Well, I actually went to school. I did my MBA with somebody, and he actually ended up receiving it. Because I believe when you're in post-secondary, they will continue it for a period of time. So he was still at that last year age-wise where he was still receiving it. So I think it's important to note that that orphans' benefit can potentially carry on for a lot longer than we think. The other piece that I think people often don't think about is that all of these are benefits with that next net tax dollar amount that we paid into CPP. But if you're going to say, well, let me hold that money, let me grow it myself, you have to consider what the after-tax implications of growing it yourself are. And in today's lower expected return environment, it may not be as beneficial a net of taxes we think it might be.

Jason Pereira: Yep. No, I will say that that's... And let's just go back to this also investment numbers, like at the end of the day, maybe you could do better, maybe you could do worse at the end of the day. But there's no comparing a volatility to a pension. This is one of the things that drives me and that's about comparing equities and pensions. It's like, oh, yeah, well, I can maybe get a better return and get you more income. But it's not that you're going from... You're not just turning the risk up a little bit. You're going from literally a zero-risk scenario into a risk scenario. And you can't look at that as a zero to one on a scale. One to 10 are actually closer than that zero and one are. The zero and one is a huge mile. And after that, it's a big difference. So I think you have to contemplate that. So all this gets said and done, and I'm just going to go to the final retirement benefit and I'm going to make a quick statement on this. We're not going to spend too much time dwelling on this. Maybe if you... I'm going to test you, see if you know the answer on this, just put you on the spot. So if you take it early, it's basically reduces by how much per month?

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Oh, if you take it early, it reduces by 0.6% per month.

Jason Pereira: Per month, right? So if you... And early being normal retirement age is 65, every month you take it early, it gets reduced by that amount up to a maximum of 36 as early as age 60. If you go to the 70, what is the math? And what's the calculus there?

Aravind Sithamparapillai: 0.7% per month up to age 70. I want to wait and see whether you're going to cover it. And if not, I want to talk about the life of...

Jason Pereira: Yeah, it's 42%, which is what everybody thinks it is. However, it's not really 42%.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Can I explain why? Well, to be honest, this didn't really hit me until we were going through this. And then I realized that what happens is when you take CPP, they calculate that bonus on top of what the actual CPP rate is that year. And so when you look at any of those break-even calculations, the thing that isn't considered is that whatever labor inflation and CPP inflation might have been. So now, not only do I get this bonus, but if I wait, let's call it the full five years and I get that 42%, well, the base CPP that I would have received at 65 technically was growing with inflation every single year.

Jason Pereira: So you have to... What's the inflation? And more than inflation. It's growing by average industrial wage, which is historically roughly 1% more than inflation.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Oh, yeah, yeah. So you're in a situation where your CPP grew, now you get to add the bonus on top of it. So it's not really 42%. In some cases, when we look at that 7% per year, but then you add in a 3% growth, well, it's closer to like a 10% growth, on nominal terms. I understand that everyone looking... Any other planners looking will say, well, hey, inflation's baked in, that's not really fair. But have you considered the investment returns on an after inflation adjusted basis or have you considered nominal returns? And if you're considering nominal on the investment side, then you have to consider nominal on the CPP side.

Jason Pereira: Yeah. Look, at the end of the day, it is a more complicated formula than most people think. I think to simply say, oh, the employer's paying this net amount of dollars and they're going to get X back and the math looks terrible, is just so misguided. Because at the end of the day, two things. A, they aren't looking at the real cost. They aren't looking at the real cost. Until you do the math on the real cost, you don't know what that looks like. And that's not to say that everybody should always take CPP in every case. I mean, I think there's... In most cases, I think it does make sense. In some rare cases, I think it doesn't make sense. I mean, the simple example is, you got a terminal disease and you're 40. And you're going to continue to work, but you're not going to continue to work for that much longer. Realistically, there's your argument.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: There is your argument.

Jason Pereira: But that said, how many people fit into that? Right? And there's this real online forums. This is the real thing of like, well, I feel like I got cheated if it's all... If I contributed into it and I got nothing out of it. Well, you got bigger problems.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: I mean, in a way, I kind of look at it like insurance. Because it's a peace of mind, right? Like, once I get to 60, 65, and I'll speak for myself here, maybe everybody's a little different. But there's a nice feeling of saying, hey, I've got this base that's going to cover a lot of the needed expenses in my life. And with so few years left at that point, and likely not everyone gets to that point, super healthy, or they've seen their friends or family start to get sick and pass away. Do you really want to spend all of your time worrying if 100% of your assets are concentrated in the same types of savings, so to speak? And as planners, we talk about diversification across a variety of different spectrums. And I think this is just another example of tax and income diversification as well.

Jason Pereira: Yeah. And the thing is, too, is I'll say a couple of other things. We kind of talked about earlier. But the deferral, it gets up to 42%. When you look at the average industrial wage growth, that number actually ends up being closer to 50%. So someone who would be entitled to CPP maximum benefit of about $16,375 this year, by deferring, that number would actually be, in today's dollars, about $24,000 a year for an individual and $48,000 for a couple. Pays for a lot of living expenses in retirement, quite honestly. And to have that guaranteed floor, never mind OAS on top of that, but to have that guaranteed floor taking care of expenses, honestly, I'll say a lot of people are worried about not having enough to retire. Those people typically don't do the math on OAS and CPP. And when we do, it's usually a lot better than it looks. But beyond that, everybody thinks that never, for whatever reason, I've never met anybody who thinks they're going to live to 100. They all seem to think that they're going to be the ones who die early. Sorry, but statistically, you get to 70. The odds are, we people don't get this. Life expectancy is not a set age. It's a moving target. The older you get, the more likely you are to live beyond it. So it might be 84 for people born today. But if you're at 70 already, odds are you're going to be touching into the 90s pretty close to it.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Yeah, that's a long time to pay.

Jason Pereira: Yep.

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Any other questions for me, Jason?

Jason Pereira: No, I think that's it. So if people want to look into your research, I mean, I think you published most of this on LinkedIn of all places. But anywhere else they could find it?

Aravind Sithamparapillai: Yeah, they can reach out to me through our website. But I would say, you know, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, midwives tend to hang out on Instagram. So if any midwives happen to listen to this, they can find me there. But I would say that's where I'm probably the most active at this point in time.

Jason Pereira: Yep. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it. So that was today's interview with Aravind. Hope you enjoyed that. And as always, if you enjoyed this podcast, leave a review on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, Spotify, or wherever your podcast. Until next time, take care.

Announcer: This podcast was brought to you by Woodgate Financial, an award-winning financial planning firm catering to high net worth individuals, business owners, and their families. To learn more, go to woodgate.com. You can subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Google Play, and Spotify, or find more episodes at JasonPereira.ca. You can even ask Siri, Alexa, or Google Home to subscribe for you.