Don't Leave A Mess with Sandy Pollack | E114

welcome to the financial planning for Canadian business owners podcast you will hear about industry insights with award-winning financial planner and entrepreneur Jason Pereira through the interviews with different experts with their stories and advice you will learn how you can navigate the challenges of being an entrepreneur plan for success

and make the most of your business and life and now your host Jason Pereira hello and welcome T the show of Sandy PA author of the book don't leave a mess now the book is pretty much a aate planning book but really talks about how to differentiate between the concepts of financial thinking and

financial planning because one is needed in order to effectively do the other and with that here's my with Sandy sand thanks for taking time today thank you for inviting me Jason it's a pleasure to be here my pleasure so Sandy Paul tell us a little bit about yourself I'm originally from Montreal a graduate of Miguel University I have been in the

financial services world for over 35 years I am a certified financial planner a family Enterprise advisor a chartered life underwriter as well as a whole bunch of other designations because I love learning and try to keep that knife as sharp as possible when it comes to

being of assistance to the clients that I work with and I have an advisory firm called traran Advisory Group where we work with business owners and high- net worth individuals to help them make wise choices to protect what they've worked so hard to build okay perfect so

basically I brought you on the show to talk about your book and the work you've done in estate planning so talk to me about talk to me about that but specifically let's talk about this entire estate thinking and planning thinking concept that you talk about in the book first well I think uh Jason to be very Frank with you we tend to be a

species where we're always looking to find Solutions and if you are a business owner that wakes up every day with problems and we're not talking about a problem but many issues that you're constantly having to think on your feet and handle in order to grow your business and be what I would call a

future thinker it's very normal for when people consider estate planning that they want to do it as quick quickly and efficiently as possible the challenge with that is that if you don't really think through the wealth that you've built you can end up destroying the very thing that you have

created because I'm a firm believer that Building Wealth managing wealth and transferring wealth are three separate things yeah it's uh I smiled there a couple a couple comments you made there it's the quick and efficiently as possible it's like I find it hilarious

and and I guess you know people just don't know better the entire like I need a will so it's like I'm going to go grocery shopping like it's this entire I do love the entire I I've been nagged by my advisor to do this forever I know I need to do this forever okay now I'm ready to do what I want I want to done yesterday like no this is not this is not a document this is a process to

arrive at a document and that is a fundamental difference and I've literally seen people like well this is taking so long I'm like yes because we started asking questions and you had no answers rightly so because you haven't started thinking about this right so and as for your point about about basically it is a way of destroying wealth oh oh

yeah as let to say the only people who benefit from a poorly organized state are the lawyers and whether that be people suing each other or not leaving in a state plan behind or any number of other things I always say if you if you want to if you want to destroy your wealth don't take the time and create it but if you also want to make your family

hate you after you're gone go ahead and leave a disorganized because heartbreaking is see but countless times I've seen people just look at the person who just died not longingly or sorrow but just mad and and on some level right please so so all right talk to me about

we'll get into some horror stories along the way I'm sure but talk to me about like the first steps like what are the early impetuses to to actually getting this problem resolved well I think a lot of it has to do with people's reticence the even think of putting a will together or planning their Affairs and

there's many myths uh that I uncover and share in my book the first big one is that if I don't write my will and plan my estate I won't die or that if I do that's what oh someone wrote a will they died the next week oh no that's a bad Omen exactly yes it's exactly that so

that's number one the other thing is that we all have how our relationship ship with money how we grew up someone it quainted money scripts sometimes we're taught it's not nice to talk about money it's rude right so what is worse not talking about money while you're

alive or waiting for your family to be shocked with how much or how little there is and the complexity and why I say this is because it's not about money not being important it's what money does and once a person understands their money script

understands what the value of money creates it creates Freedom it creates charity holidays doing good for others Financial Security all of a sudden when you start to unpack what money is it's not such a terrible thing right and it's not such a horrible thing to discuss

particularly with your life partner and your family and I think what happens is we are conditioned preconditioned depending on how we grew up that it's somewhat rude to discuss so that's another reason why people don't like to plan their Estates is because they don't even want to think about the magnitude of their wealth and you have a

generation which is the Baby Boomers that are surprisingly getting older I I know it might be a shock to you Jason but every day we are one year older than we were the year the day before and understanding that events can happen that I think that if you are prepared and if you have the courage because it

does take courage to actually sit back and look at what you have and what you want to do with it and also get into Sometimes some uncomfortable conversations about families and family Dynamics because every family is special and every family has its own unique relationships challenges baggage we'll call it that

needs to be addressed because it's not just about wasting the wealth away due to estate litigation which can cost hundreds of thousands and sometimes millions of dollars and we talk a little bit about that in the book but it's what it does to your family members and it ends up destroying families more than

financially but the whole purpose of a family is about unity and Harmony or at least that's the quest you have very different personalities but keeping the family together usually it's that generation that creates the wealth that is the bind that holds them and if they have not taken the necessary steps to a

understand what they have what their tax obligations are if they happen to walk out of life a little too soon and how they want it distributed it can actually destroy family relationships for generations to come and that is totally unnecessary in my my humble opinion all right so we'll talk

about what goes wrong later but let's talk about so you so this is the this is the issue okay so they finally reconciled that they want to do this and you know I think for straightforward ones where there's one child that's going to get everything no problem right like I shouldn't say that actually because sometimes it's like I don't want to leave them that much right or or there's a business that maybe they're

not capable of running so let's talk about even when a PE to be the simplest of situations where there's one err talk to me about like common pitfalls or issues that you see happen and you know what feel free to expand on multiple errors because frankly it's going to touch upon them as well whether it's one or multiple first of all you have to take account what you have it astounds

me the number of successful entrepreneurs that don't even have a clue as to what their personal net worth is and when they do they are shocked they thought they might be worth a couple of million when in fact it could be worth tens of millions and multiples thereof so getting them to understand

what comprises of their wealth is Step number one step number two is understanding that there's may be some illiquidity issues and if you're talking about an entrepreneur in particular our experience and we deal with many successful family businesses and some that family members aren't involved they

tend to invest in whether it's inventory reinvest in their business real estate's a big one where they'll have a real estate portfolio they're not so hot on rsps but they realize they have to do it because they love the fact that they can save taxes again a little tax strategy that they that's their mini fix that

they get but they never take the time and it's probably a good thing is just to look at in a pie shape where where is your net worth and when we sit down with our clients and show them that more often than not 70% of their net worth is comprised of hard assets without any liquidity and that creates a significant

tax obligation that they are not even aware of until it's too late well what's interesting there too is that people think it's you know it's it's one it can go one of two ways either that a they're not really aware of how much they have and they're like this is surprise and then therefore they haven't thought about the tax bill or realize was on the radar but the other one is sometimes the

delusion that they think it's worth a lot more that's a big issue with a lot of entrepreneurs their baby is always Top Value but not necessarily but but frankly for for this exercise we don't want it to be the highest possible multiple anyway so not it's an easier conversation to say well maybe you're business is not that worth that much because we're tax planning right like that one they're okay with and I think

they are when they have to look at the tax obligation I think what they forget is that they have to look at will the business continue past them beyond their life and more often than not they've never really taken that into account until there is an event that happens um

unexpected diagnosis a divorce and all of a sudden what they thought was well I was only pulling in $200,000 when in actual fact the business was supporting a lifestyle that was much more in excess of that and they had different income splitting opportunities or or things to actually use the business to maintain

their lifestyle so I think that sometimes it just takes it takes a curious kind of advisor to ask them a what their relationship with money is what they have why understand their history of their wealth Journey why they started most entrepreneurs that we work with more than likely were one of two

kinds of people a they were unemployable or B they thought that they could do better than their current boss or they had an idea that they think would be better than anybody else's to give to the world or sell to the world and and seize that opportunity and I think that once you can connect their history and

their story and then ask them what they want to see happen three five 10 years what their relationship with their children are how they feel about money I mean we we're working with a family right now who just sold a business the accountants did a phenomenal job of getting the deal together taking care of

all the paperwork and negotiation I mean they were just Stellar but no one asked them would you like to take some of that tax that you have to pay and we're talking seven figures and redirect that to a family found Foundation to a Community Foundation and they went we can do that so sure enough we looped the

accountant back in and said look we're looking at maybe making a million-- doull gift to a foundation that will perpetuate the rich family history that they have as it relates to giving to the community supporting certain areas that that they are that are very important to

them so the accountants went oh we never really thought of that so sure enough they come back with three different scenarios to show the difference in doing scenario one 2 or three and we're about to present that to the client it had nothing to do with buying anything it had to do with thinking about how can you create it a a something that will

engage multiple generations and and the interesting thing about this gift that I'm really excited about because I'm presenting it on Thursday is that it's going to connect the person that sold the business with their grandchildren because with a a gift of a million dollars that will spit out $50,000 a

year wouldn't it be nice to sit down with your grandkids and talk about charity and causes and have them present and those are memories that will be seared into not just their brains but their hearts and that's what real wealth and Legacy planning is about is really about connecting families so that they

stay together and I think we forget that when we're doing our planning I don't know if that answers your question Jason it goes a different different directions so you basically went down that path and and like let's talk about other ways that you can potentially connect Generations across across timelines planning so talk to me what you what

other tactics you've used Okay so we've had family meetings particularly in family businesses with multi-generations and what we have been honored to do I would say because it really is an honor and a privilege is to have multiple Generations sitting around a conference table and asking them what's so special

about this family knowing full well that there's been conflict knowing full well that not everybody is everybody's best friend and what comes out of that from each member each generation is so rich that it also helps the wealth call it the wealth founder the the one who owns the majority of wealth plan what they

have with more they're turning significant wealth into significance so whether that be using life insurance using trusts looking at corporate reorganizations all that's the after stuff but really what's key to any successful estate plan is thinking about

what you want why and not always looking at it from a tax lens because your children or grandchildren are not tax deductions they're actually human beings and if they're not prepared they can be both but continue they can be both but they are human beings and they need to

be prepared they need to be prepared and more often than not you we're witnessing second and third Generations that are not prepared for the mag magnitude of wealth that's being left so then everybody's talking to them in a language that they don't understand instead of slowly supporting them so

that they have the financial literacy and the tools that they need to have a life with intentionality with a great future ahead and also securing their own Financial Security and Independence so one tool is having families talk discuss we have um particularly in the family

business Arena we have had families compose their mission statement we've guided them to which reflects not just their values but the purpose and the number of business owners who feel a deep sense of responsibility to their employees and the families that they employ is astounding it is absolutely

astounding it's not just about the weal for their kids they feel that they're part of a community and the last thing they would want is to lose a business because of neglect or not planning properly because they realize that they have a responsibility not just to the community that they live in but to the

families that they employ so so that's one way the other way I think is about collaboration and I think that there there's not enough there's a lot of talk about cooperation but there's very little collaboration and when I say the cooperation what I mean is me being nice

to your professional advisors whether they're accountants whether they're lawyers whether they're investment experts Insurance professionals they never you know like it just means I'm going to be nice to you you're going to be nice to me so that we get the job done what happens in collaboration which really is a totally different step to to planning is when you share information

to the other professional advisers that will impact the advice that they give the client and a good example and I can share a story of a client who's you know we had a tax lawyer we had we had a tax lawyer an accountant myself and my client and this person had uh a lot of

wealth a lot of real estate and the tax lawyer was talking about how they could freeze the value of the assets and then push everything into this spousal trust right and then when she died the kids would get it the only problem with that as my client was squirming in his chair was that this was a second marriage so the first marriage his goal was that he

wanted his children from the first marriage to get the bulk of the wealth also to leave a percentage to his second wife because he loved her very much and all that the tax uh lawyer saw was defer defer defer and the account was divide divide divide so I took them both out for lunch and I explained to them

that there was a balance between control and tax and you could have some tax leaking out and you could solve that with life insurance with corporately owned life insurance but still gave the amount of control that the client wanted so sure enough they re they went back to

their plans and what was interesting was the accountant who said Sandy this has been your client for two and a half years I have known this client for 25 years and you know more about his life and the relationships and the complexity than I do so thank you very much they went back to the drawing board they made an amazing plan that included trust that

included freezes but that gave the client control and and everybody was happy in the end almost it's it's it's funny I I say you know the old to a man with a hammer everything's a nail right of course they're looking at it from that lens and it's when you know these are the things I Chuck when people say well I have an account what you a planner for it's like you think that those rules are the same thing that's

interesting they're not right and it is absolutely you ask a lawyer you know what you need to do they're looking from that lens you look ask a accountant you're looking from that lens but the reality is is that as go back to you said about as humans we like to solution everything problem is we do that before we Define the problem properly and there

was a perfect example of of the problem was not defined properly and it was easily solvable but you had to zoom out to to actually know what it was you were trying to fix and it wasn't a tax bill it wasn't and yet at the same time the planning wasn't done Jason wasn't complete because the next thing was how

do you share your planning with your children and your spouse and you know what we all have a Readiness time and this person wasn't ready because he came from very humble beginnings his wealth amounted to close to 100 million and he did and whenever we would do a review he would say that's not me cuz he's this

very hum Umble individual keeps a very low profile very quiet wealth and I went I didn't say that it's you but you own this and there's a responsibility as to what you want to do with it so let's talk he wasn't ready to share this and and they and his children were not spoiled his children very responsible

living within their means like everything was you know there was no reason for a little red flag to go up except that there's always the ex right that's in the in the background so I said uh well look if you're not ready why don't we just write a letter why don't we write a letter to your children and a letter to your second spouse as to

why you've organized your Affairs this way and and what your thoughts were and we ended up having two very I don't even know what the word to this transformational conversations about how he grew up when he came to Canada what it was like when he started his business the hours that

he had to put in in the initial years the divorce his love for his children his love for his second wife and so we we helped him put together two letters he'd updated his wills very legal e there was no dear or beloved in those documents unfortunately and we we put in his words

listening to him a letter to each so that that would in some way avoid a state litigation fast forward 10 years later and now it's time to have that family meeting and we've had an opportunity to meet with um the children to talk about how they felt about the relationship with their dad how they

were with each other and then the next step of course and we still haven't got to it is to meet the second wife and and there's a fear there's a fear and it's understandable and yet there is something about relationships and love that is so powerful that sometimes we forget we forget and we think that we're going to do harm when an actual fact by

having these conversations it makes families have clarity it makes them understand each other better and it also tightens uh those bonds instead of severing them so again sharing we had shared our report with both the accountant and the lawyer so they knew the family Dynamics they knew the the

family tree I mean we do some very comprehensive planning and it made it easier a to implement the plan but 10 years later it's not relevant anymore and it's not sustainable so he's got to take the dust off and open it and we'll see how that goes there's no guarant

gues so let's talk about the obstacles encountered in the middle of so people often start these processes start getting H questions never thought about and then the family Dynamics issues come out of it talking about some of the more common ones you see and and like we can talk about not necessarily Solutions but

tactics on how we can be addressed so there are two different scenarios one scenario is a family business Enterprise and one is just someone that has been uh either inherited wealth or built wealth sold their business and now it's a question of what to do with it so you tell me which one you want me to discuss

Jason and I'll go from there let's go with the first one go and we'll do the second one first one family business family business okay so for family business when we begin an engagement we have what's called a discovery process where we have meetings with all the family members the key players in the business like the CFO CEO and the

children to find out a little bit more about the family their role their future their their thoughts and we come up with major themes once we've addressed major themes for example most entrepreneurs have this desire to reinvest in their business in order to grow it and they continue to play this song this tune for

5 10 15 20 25 years which is why you have so much wealth that's a liquid so then we come up with themes okay do we Harvest is it now the time and so is it growth are we ready to grow the business or harvest another thing that we come up with is Letting Go you know and mentoring do they continue to control or

do they let go do they look at different planning do they invite their children into the planning so that discovery which can take hours right we have lots of interviews we come up with um many themes and then we ask the client okay we'll come up with themes like first of all uh we have one client right now where there is a capital gains

obligation in excess of 25 million okay do you want to address that now we also have mentorship for Next Generation do you want to address that communication there's no communication between and we don't do it all for our clients but we I I look at planning somewhat like going on a freeway and so you're going to have

people that come on the off ramps come on the onramps and depending on where the client wants to go we're able to bring if necessary other professionals on and so if they say oh my God I didn't realize that I had this tax obligation Okay sandy that's really painful don't we work on that so we go through you

know what Financial Independence looks like for them um do they want to continue working what's the lifestyle what's the relationship with the spous and we tend to draw a story from them as to what they want why they want it so that they can then make some what I would call informed decisions dealing with the tax obligation you know they

may do some regular estate freezes reorganizations of the company and then they might consider what their options are to fund the tax so one option might be just to spend all those spend all the money right and you have no tax and I tell that to my clients I say there is a 100% fullprof way of paying 0% tax and they they say

really and I say oh yeah and they say how and I say give everything to charity give your homes your businesses your cars just give it all away and go on government assistance you'll get two possibly three meals a day a bed but you won't pay any taxes so you can go to that plan or you can keep what you've built and and prepare what you've built

in a way that reflects your values your vision as well as a tax effective plan so then we explore funding we explore saving money to pay tax we discuss double taxation on death they look at insurance which sometimes can be a very interesting tool because it provides liquidity when you need it the most to

at least buy time and pay taxes at uh Pennies on the dollar we look at engaging their other advisors we also help our clients this is uh something that we've just implemented in the last two years which is a legacy letter so that they have something beyond the gift that they leave their families and I think that that is almost like their

moral and financial compass that they hope will transcend other Generations so we do work in that area as well so once we've come up with all these themes we ask them where they want to start because usually there's at least three if not eight different issues that have to be addressed and we're not there to

coach them I am not a coach I am their guide all right when you go on a trip you say I want to go here or I want to go there and the guy says okay now we'll make up a plan and this idea of the quarterback it's not about the quarterback it's about uh collaboration it's about communication and

transparency and I think as any kind of adviser whether it be legal tax Insurance Financial the key to truly serving your client is to take your ego gently gently ever so gently place it in your back pocket and ask the clients

interesting questions to help them and guide them so they can make the right decisions with Clarity and confidence and I think that we forget that because there's so many great Solutions out there but the client has to have their own self-discovery and prioritize in order to even be open and receptive to addressing those Solutions and the family business Enterprise world is very

complex and it requires many professionals from counselors to coaches mentors I mean the list goes on so so that's that does that answer that question it's a big question I think it does I think it does so okay so we answered that question so I mean it's funny because I was thinking along the

way it's just if anything all the stuff the accountants and lawyers focus on is actually the easy part of this equation right because once you understand what it is you're trying to accomplish it's just a matter of there's only so many tricks for how we're going to accomplish that sometimes you can't accomplish what they want to accomplish right but you can get as close to it as possible and I think it's too often it's uh as usual

it's it's looking for it's looking for the the thing that solves a problem people are used to paying for things documents whatever else it is as opposed to what is the actual strategy and or uh you know the logistics of it are important don't get me wrong they're absolutely necessary but if you're not pointing the right direction it's a disaster all right so basically uh we've

gone through got through that piece of it let's talk about the ones who didn't basically have businesses this is just inherited wealth right that's it's very different relationship because if you don't create it on your own with your you know starting from nothing story your view of money is is different so talk to me about how that impacts the

estate planning process another great question Jason so that requires a little of reflection because it depends on how much The Inheritance is the size of the inheritance is key sometimes people that receive significant wealth consider themselves if they're prepared stewards of wealth and what I mean by stewards of

wealth is this was a gift this was a gift which perhaps came from my parents to soften the edges of life right y soften the edges make things a little more comfortable and I would like to ensure that if I happen to use this money through because of longevity risks

because of investment whatever the case may be or using it right to to live my lifestyle and if I want to replenish it what do I need to consider so those are the stewards that they receive and I'm assuming this is just plain cash because real estate's very different the second kind of thinking is okay how do I

introduce this to my children what we have why we have it and teach them financial literacy I I've got a new word for it which I call Financial fluency and it's helping young people get through all the Clutter and noise and I think most of the Clutter that we see I hate to say this is through social media

there's so much misinformation out there the banks are you mean Canada doesn't have an estate tax what are you talking about Sor exactly coun on a daily basis oh do you really well there you go or or or even credits credit cards yeah there you know the banks are teaching young children at University you'll see I mean

I remember this I I was giving a talk on it was financial planning week and they wanted to talk about money and marriage and they asked me to give a a discussion on it was kind of fun little Shiki and as I'm leaving there are all these tables and there's all these Banks and one of them has uh piggy banks that they're giving away so you get a piggy

bank and here is an application for a credit card so think about that those aren't the same thing Sor well yeah exactly aren't they the same thing so all of a sudden you've got this disconnect of saving and spending or when you're talking to younger people and they say well no the bank says I should only pay the minimum because it's good for my credit rating which which is

such misinformation when they're paying 27% who told them that this is real this is real what's happening and we're talking about these are young young people that are being misinformed because of all the noise so I think that the first thing is I think every parent has a responsibility to teach their

children about saving about spending about sharing about tools are out there what is an investment what is a stock what is a bond what you know why do people buy homes what's a mortgage and I think that we have really I I've seen it more often than not a lot of young adults that are

not prepared and I think it's up to a parent to teach children grit teach children about waiting about longterm that you can't always make 50% in one year one month one day through day trading I mean there's so much misinformation out there I think that it's really important that we have those

conversations and and part of what's in the book is not just about how to but it's really about reflecting and thinking and there are um there questions there's tools there's lists that make it so easy but you know what's

interesting Jason is easy things are never easy no no and we have to just accept that fact that easy things difficult things sometimes are easier than easy things and I will say two things about young people in money one having taught University I am often struck by the level of delusion around a

couple things a starting salaries quite amazing like I would think you would look that up before you actually enroll in in a in a in a program but most don't and when I put those up on screen people are deflated lifetime earnings really the number of people it's amazing what they think they're going to be making five years out just not the thing and yeah sometimes like and realistic

investment returns I I remember one time someone basically because we the program like I had a project with where they sign up for a robo advisor and would chart what happened on a weekly basis because I wanted to show them how boring it was when they did it in the balance portfolio and one person legitimately said you know I thought I'd be able to double my money every year and be a billionaire by whatever age and I'm just

like I'm like do you legitimately believe that the reason people aren't billionaires is for lack of the bare minimum effort required like like is this what legitimately we are leading people to believe and I get it in the absence of any other information their mind will make whatever assumptions

they're going to make right but so it was very it's a very Stark class for a lot of these kids they just really they never really had thought about it in those terms and seeing realities unfortunately a cold splash of water on their face the other thing I'm going to go back to and talk about inherited wealth and you said about stewardship you're absolutely right I think the the

big the largest legacies I've seen Left Behind Some of the dynastic fortunes I've been privileged enough to know meet people who were beneficiaries of what really struck with me and I've seen a lot of these things go wrong but the ones that went right what really struck me was the fact that they saw it as not theirs it was like this thing that was given to them that they are to take care

of that will enable the next Generations to benefit but they needed to contribute it to it they needed to take care of it but they sure as heck weren't going to spend it down and it was just I gotta say I don't think I don't think that that is AR that conclusion is ever arrived at without a lot of conditioning for a client for for a kid to understand

that that is their role when it comes to familial wealth and so I think it's one of those things absolutely that is that is something that is a great so anyone who's got who's got wealth and wants to pass it down and make sure it's going to basically be treated you know with the utmost respect and benefit as many generations forward as possible that is definitely the approach you got to take but it is not an approach you can teach

them at the 11th Hour that is something that has to be conditioned from an early age right and maybe you don't have that wealth early on so it's difficult maybe you aim up with nothing yourself and don't want them to basically suffer well unfortunately it's hardship that makes people resilient you know you can't get a DI without pressure right so it's uh

often times spoil often times giving them everything is often is just training them that it is there to be spent and gone now if you want that that's fine but if you expect it to to to outlive you and outlive them it's different I I think there's more to unpack than than the idea of stewardship I think there are emotional factors as

well there's guilt there's shock that have to be unpacked when we're looking at State planning and I think that we have to change how we talk about it and what I mean by that Jason is it's not about passing wealth down it's passing wealth too and those words are powerful

because it's like a baton if you're in a relay race it's about taking that baton and passing it on to the next person the other thing we have to be mindful of is not everybody has to pass on their wealth they can give it away I know situations where people have you know inherited significant wealth and they

started their own foundations they live they live a nice lifestyle but they're giving it all away and they're giving it away with purpose and they need help in defining what that purpose is what causes are important we talk a little bit about that as well in the book is understanding that you have to spend

some well you have to save some spend some and share some and those are the three keys to earning wealth managing wealth perpetuating wealth transferring wealth and people there's a lot of people that don't understand that that money has good attributes to it and can do exceptional things and whether it's

being involved in uh eradicating hunger encouraging Literacy for those that are disadvantaged providing scholarships and a bigger future that in itself deserves conversation not just about the money but what it can do and once you get past

the financial security and the independence it can be quite powerful absolutely so before we wrap up I want to uh give you an opportunity to provide any last thoughts or words of encouragement for people who are facing this and where to I guess how to best start is the way to really look at I think the first thing

that you want to do I mean there's no best way to start quite frankly I mean get the book uh how you know don't leave a mess we have uh that's available on Amazon all the different what is it called mediums we have it in able we have it in hard cover soft cover we also

have a website www.le a.ca where we put up articles we're doing speaking engagements number of podcasts this as one of them and thank you Jason for this opportunity I am really hoping that this book will be an industry Transformer and what I mean

by that is not just in the financial services industry but I'm talking about legal and accounting so that people that have worked so hard to build what they they have built can transfer that with intentionality and wisdom excellent so Sandy thank you so much for your time where can people find you

www.d don't leave a.ca that would be the best and you don't even have to put an apostrophe on there and I want to thank you Jason this has been a share it's been a real Delight thank you for making me think a little harder than normal and I just wish you continued success with your practice in your podcast thank you and we you're with your book so that was

today's the interview with s P hope you enjoyed that and this is something you're interested in learning more about by all means please pick up the book until next time if you enjoyed this podcast please leave a viiew on Apple podcast SoundCloud Spotify res your podcast until next time take care this podcast was brought to you by

Woodgate Financial an award-winning financial planning firm catering to high net worth individuals business owners and their families to learn more go to Woodgate tocom you can subscribe to this podcast on Apple podcast Stitcher Google Play and Spotify or find more episodes

at Jason Pereira CA you can even ask sir Alexa or